Bruce Horn on 1984, Today, and Beyond - April 26, 2004
In 1984, Apple debuted the Macintosh: a personal computer that took a radical leap in the user experience, and brought it to the masses. And behind the computer was the team, which included a young programmer, Bruce Horn. Fresh from the groundbreaking labs at Xerox PARC, Bruce worked on the Finder, an application and concept that in some form or another, is universally used by computer users today. Now, soon after the Macintosh's 20th anniversary, Dr. Horn joins us to revisit his experience as a collaborator in one of the greatest technological projects in history, discuss what he has done since then, and what he has planned for the future.
MacThemes: Let's start with some history. Xerox PARC has created some of the most important developments in personal computing, including laser printing, ubiquitous computing, Ethernet, and of course, the graphical user interface. How did you join the lab at the age of 14?
I was pretty lucky. My parents moved to Palo Alto when I was 12, and thanks to Nils Nilsson, the head of the Stanford Computer Science Department, I and other kids had a chance to be introduced to computers in elementary school. I of course was very interested in learning much more! The Palo Alto Unified School District had an HP2000 timesharing computer and terminals at each school, so we could write programs in BASIC and try them out (excruciatingly slowly, with ASR-33 Teletypes noisily banging out the lines of code).
I had friends who were connected at Stanford, and we would often go over to Ventura Hall where a number of graduate students were doing some computing projects; they gave us accounts on the various computers and we played with graphics on the Imlac terminals, wrote papers for school in the text editors, and generally had a great time. Some of the Xerox PARC people were there as well, though I didn’t know it at the time.
At one point, Ted Kaehler, then a graduate student as well as a member of the Xerox Learning Research Group at PARC, wandered down to the high school to see if he could find a couple of kids to help out with some programming. I was very interested in mathematics, and went to a few math competitions in the Bay Area, so the math department head, Dr. Hawkinson, knew me pretty well and knew that I was involved with computers. He recommended me (and later my friend Steve Putz).
It was an incredible time. We started using a version of Smalltalk-72, one of the earliest Smalltalk systems, and it was tremendously different from what I had been used to. The syntax of the language was unique, to say the least; there were odd characters in the character set (a pointing hand and an eyeball, for example, which were used in the language) and of course Smalltalk provided a graphical interface using the three-button mouse. Eventually the entire lab was wired with Ethernet (invented there by Metcalfe and Boggs), and the laser printer down the hall was just a click away. This was in the mid-70’s, remember; each time I went in the door at PARC it felt like I had walked into the future.
I played around with the system for a while before I started to get into lower-level projects that involved Novacode (an assembly code) and microcode, and eventually I even started to do some useful things for the rest of the group. Some of my favorite projects include working on the Smalltalk bytecode interpreter microcode on the Dorado, a very fast ECL (emitter-coupled logic) research machine; working on the NoteTaker, a “luggable” Smalltalk machine; and working on porting Smalltalk to a Norwegian microcomputer at the Central Institute for Industrial Research in Oslo, Norway.
The people at PARC were just amazing. The Learning Research Group consisted of artists, musicians, and rock climbers, all of whom were also incredible computer scientists, and the most passionate and enthusiastic people you could imagine, Adele Goldberg, Dan Ingalls, Ted Kaehler, Diana Merry, Dave Robson, Larry Tesler, Steve Weyer, and many others—were, to a person, eclectic, passionate, and amazingly talented. In particular, the head of LRG, Alan Kay (who just received the Nobel Prize of Computing—the ACM Turing Award—as well as the Draper Prize from the National Academy of Engineering) was an accomplished musician, tennis player, philosopher, and cognitive scientist; a modern renaissance man.
The rest of PARC was the same way. Everyone was willing to talk with us—think of being able to walk into the offices of people like Chuck Geschke and John Warnock, the founders of Adobe; or Ed McCreight, the inventor of B-Trees. I could write an entire book about the people at PARC, but others already have. For a teenager hungry for knowledge, this was truly nirvana. I can’t imagine a better way to have spent my teenage years.
After I finished university, I reluctantly concluded that I should see more of the world; despite the fact that PARC was the Mecca of computer science, I thought that maybe I should go out and make use of what I had learned there. So I went to Apple, and the rest is history.
MacThemes: Apple, a company near and dear to our hearts. By the time Apple was preparing to release the Macintosh, the company must have been rushing to complete what was probably one of the most influential products of the decade. Can you tell us about working there, and creating history?
There is so much to tell, it’s hard to say much of anything in a short interview. The Mac group was very small when I started there—we worked in a little building at the corner of Stevens Creek and De Anza, behind the Texaco station. When I first arrived, I was given a demo of the Lisa, which I thought was pretty cool…but of course I had been working with much more interesting things at PARC already. However, when Larry Tesler introduced me to the Mac group, I was intrigued by the concept of the Mac. Jerry Manock and his crew were making a physical box that was so appealing, and the software group was so passionate about doing something truly wonderful, that I was seriously drawn to the project. Of course I was interviewing at other places to work at the time as well, and it took some serious Reality Distortion* to get me to recognize the incredible opportunity that was at hand.
The people in the Mac group were some of the most wonderful people I’ve ever worked with; I’d like to name them all but it would take up too much of this article! The time I was there was magical. I think many of us did some of the best work in our lives during the development of the Mac.
*Editors note: This, of course, is referring to Steve Jobs's infamous "Reality Distortion Field", also known as his fabled charisma.
MacThemes: The experience must have indeed been magical, but you fail to mention a major player in the project. Tell us the truth. Is Steve Jobs insanely great, or just plain insane?
I think that there isn’t anyone like Steve Jobs. In many ways he’s insanely great. Like the rest of us, though, he has strengths and weaknesses. I’d say mostly strengths, but I admit that it takes a special kind of person to be able to work effectively with Steve.
MacThemes: This is off on a tangent, but something you must have thought about at one point or another. Apple computers have recently been overshadowed by the enormous success of the iPod and the iTunes Music Store. Do you think Apple is preparing Plan B?
I wouldn’t call it Plan B, but I’m sure that Apple is making plans to continue to provide innovative solutions in areas that we haven’t thought about—or maybe have thought about, and hoped that Apple would be doing something! Desktop computing has turned into a commodity market. Laptops seem to be where the most growth is at this time (I do all my work on a Powerbook), along with the small devices like the iPod and linking to online media sales. I don’t pretend to understand what Apple is planning, but I’m sure that it will be interesting.
MacThemes: But you have had experience consulting for Apple. What projects have you been involved in since leaving Apple in 1984?
Comments
Posted by gautch at April 26, 2004 06:44 PM | Edit | Delete
Wow, what a great interview! Im surprised no one else has comented on it.. Dr.Horn is a poineer!
Now to bring the themeing theme of this site...Id love to see a retro theme.. that looks like thoes old screen shots!
Posted by [ idle. ] at April 26, 2004 06:52 PM | Edit | Delete
indeed a great interview.
ahh,... those were the days.... (not that i would have any memories.. hehe)
cheerz, [ idle. ]
Posted by SB at April 26, 2004 06:56 PM | Edit | Delete
Ahh, but I WAS there! Started in 1984 - 20 years of using Macs! This was indeed a blast to read - and those B/W shots are great reminders of how simple things used to be.
SB
Posted by Komisar at April 26, 2004 07:06 PM | Edit | Delete
Like everyone said it was a great interview and those pictures bring back memories of when i used my fathers powerbook180 (Though i was only 5 at the time)
Posted by Jason Williams at April 26, 2004 07:14 PM | Edit | Delete
I can't wait to see how iFile will come out to be... :-)
Those old screenshots are good memories. The first OS I used was 7.0.something (lol I forget the last number)...then I used 7.5.3, 8, 8.5, 9, and now X...it has gone quite a long way. Mac OS X still doesn't have that "Put Away" function though, and it was a good thing to use if you accidentally moved something to the trash..
Posted by Jaey at April 26, 2004 07:28 PM | Edit | Delete
Excellent interview. I started using Macs around 7.5, so I have some good memories...
Posted by danielgrenell at April 26, 2004 07:54 PM | Edit | Delete
yay! i can't believe my question was answered!!!
Posted by 3nzo at April 26, 2004 08:06 PM | Edit | Delete
Awesome! Thanks for bringing the Mac community such great insiders :)
Posted by Corey Klinck at April 26, 2004 08:25 PM | Edit | Delete
Another 7.5-er here... I've always wanted to get my hands on one of those original Mac 128ks, though.
Posted by sergio at April 26, 2004 08:27 PM | Edit | Delete
That was a good read, a great read actually.
Posted by smeger at April 26, 2004 09:31 PM | Edit | Delete
Wow, that was a phenomenal interview! Thanks to Dr. Horn and to MacThemes for doing it!
I started my Mac experience at the end of the System 6 era, so I actually have a vague recollection of the pure black & white, pre-MultiFinder days (didn't have enough RAM for MultiFinder).
Those PARC guys were seriously ahead of their time.
Posted by Don at April 26, 2004 10:19 PM | Edit | Delete
I wish there were some good screenshots of the Star and Alto. I've never seen but one or two total.
Posted by Komisar at April 26, 2004 10:32 PM | Edit | Delete
Ah yes the great discussion i have brought on by bringing up past systems, ohh the memories... now only if we have the forum...... just wait another week ; )
Posted by Ernest Liu at April 27, 2004 12:35 AM | Edit | Delete
What amazes me is how well the user interface was created using only black and white! How he achieved different shades of gray, and even made an appealing interface.
Posted by Leo at April 27, 2004 01:50 AM | Edit | Delete
With so many years of working on the Mac and now I realized the real functionality of the Put Away Command (the ability to bring files to the desktop from their folders, work with them, and then be able to automatically return them to their original location)... what a life!!
Posted by Adam Betts at April 27, 2004 02:32 AM | Edit | Delete
Ernest,
I don't think Bruce Horn were responsible for designing the graphics. Susan Kare did most (all?) of the icons and you can view her portfolio at: http://www.kare.com/MakePortfolioPage.cgi?page=2
Posted by iNeusch at April 27, 2004 03:15 AM | Edit | Delete
Great !!
Posted by Dave at April 27, 2004 03:24 AM | Edit | Delete
Excellent interview - intelligent questions and great answers.
Posted by at April 27, 2004 08:47 AM | Edit | Delete
"The Ethernet"? Ethernet is a standard, not an abstraction; it's just "Ethernet". It would be like saying "The Firewire"
Posted by TheIceMan at April 27, 2004 09:21 AM | Edit | Delete
Great interview! Yes, like Dave said, great questions and great answers!
Posted by Komisar at April 27, 2004 05:27 PM | Edit | Delete
Adam, i think your write it was Susan Kare, and also i think we all under estimate what kind of genius it took to go from os 9 to os x and panther, there was a bigger step from that to that, then from any other system "upgrade" do you guys agree with me?
Posted by Comie Prevette at April 27, 2004 09:57 PM | Edit | Delete
This was a really good insider. Now I think to compliment it, an article on the evolution of the Mac OS GUI would be interesting. Seeing how it was from System 1 with screenshots, all the way on up to The current Aqua 10.3. With milestones from System 7 to OS8, to OSX, comparing changes in the GUI, etc. We've heard from who made it, now it would be neat to see an insider on how it looked.
Posted by Ernest Liu at April 28, 2004 12:18 AM | Edit | Delete
I actually had one complaint about the interface. When I was little, obviously I used one of the old macs with the old interface. Whenever the computer crashed (which was sadly often), a dialog with a picture of a bomb showed up. Being an unintelliable kid, I thought the computer was going to blow up. Maybe an exclimation mark would have been better, just not to scare away kids like me ten years ago ;D
Posted by gt at April 28, 2004 11:55 AM | Edit | Delete
Awesome interview. Keep up with the good work guys. :) Someday you may even get Steve Jobs himself!
Posted by Komisar at April 28, 2004 10:33 PM | Edit | Delete
Ahh yes the infamus bomb, i would try to crash my computer when i was young cause i thaught it was pretty scary as well... man did i get a kick out of that!
Posted by Mugget at April 29, 2004 05:12 AM | Edit | Delete
that was a great read. i'd never even heard of iFile before... but it sounds great, i'm going to keep my ears open for more info about that.
also, one way of organizing, and manipulating different file types, having " iTunes-type capability for all of your files, with a classic Finder interface as the foundation". i can't wait for it! :D
Posted by Komisar at April 29, 2004 08:56 AM | Edit | Delete
It is going to be great, the interface looks stunning form the pictures i saw.... wow ...... another great application on its way!
Posted by mohammad at May 6, 2004 08:32 AM | Edit | Delete
a
Posted by tonza at May 10, 2004 12:20 PM | Edit | Delete
I want OpenDoc back!!!
Many of the concepts that Bruce has explained (with iFile) and that have become trends in computing are starting to re-emerge as applications are being used to edit PARTS of files (or many files that comprise a project).
OpenDoc was designed to do JUST THAT! It was a user interface specification and system-wide document container that allowed "parts" to edit document regions or documents belonging to a collection (project).
Go ahead and fire up System 7.5, install OpenDoc, and tell me that this is not what people are trying to do now with Mac OS X, Java and Windows XP. They are all starting to do what OpenDoc did, but without a system-level document container, which to me, is an inconsistent and hence, potentially troublesome way of doing things!
Posted by discmakers at August 11, 2004 06:54 PM | Edit | Delete
Always enjoy reading your blog. Thanks!
Posted by duplication equipment at August 12, 2004 01:13 PM | Edit | Delete
I wasn't a believer at first, but now I'm totally convinced.
Posted by news- at August 19, 2004 03:23 AM | Edit | Delete
news
Posted by resorce center at August 31, 2004 09:57 AM | Edit | Delete
Visit this resource center today
Posted by john bell at September 8, 2004 10:12 AM | Edit | Delete
submitting my site
Posted by John Williams at September 11, 2004 09:52 AM | Edit | Delete
thanks this really agree with it
Posted by Jirks Krofftmann at October 10, 2004 01:06 PM | Edit | Delete
This is a good idea.
----------------------------------------
Get free email at http://www.photos-incest.com/
----------------------------------------
Posted by cell phone batteries at January 8, 2005 12:06 PM | Edit | Delete
great blog - someone text messaged my cell phone with the address
Posted by gambling at January 8, 2005 02:51 PM | Edit | Delete
You may find it interesting to visit the pages about gambling gambling http://gambling.bj.onlinegamingassociation.com/ - Tons of interesdting stuff!!!
Posted by gambling at January 9, 2005 01:35 AM | Edit | Delete
Please check out some information in the field of gambling gambling http://gambling.bj.onlinegamingassociation.com/ - Tons of interesdting stuff!!!
Posted by Home Mortgage at January 12, 2005 08:16 AM | Edit | Delete
Home Mortgage http://refinance.mortgage-refinance-leader.com
Posted by Mortgage Refinancing at January 12, 2005 08:51 AM | Edit | Delete
Mortgage Refinancing http://broker.mortgage-refinance-leader.com/map.html
Posted by Mortgage Refinance at January 12, 2005 11:51 AM | Edit | Delete
Mortgage Refinance http://finance.mortgage-refinance-leader.com
Posted by Home Mortgage at January 12, 2005 11:55 AM | Edit | Delete
Home Mortgage http://refinance.mortgage-refinance-leader.com/map.html
Posted by Diablo 2 Items at January 13, 2005 04:28 PM | Edit | Delete
Interesting information, like everywhere on this blog.
Also check out my work - a review from you will be great
diablo 2 items Find all the diablo 2 items you need!
diablo 2 rune words Browse diablo rune words !
diablo 2 runes Get Diablo 2 Runes now!
Posted by Background Check at January 14, 2005 08:31 AM | Edit | Delete
Net Detective - Net Detective 8.0
Posted by Loans at January 14, 2005 06:48 PM | Edit | Delete
Loans http://debtconsolidation.loan-easy-cash.com/map.html
Posted by Payday Loans at January 14, 2005 06:48 PM | Edit | Delete
Payday Loans http://www.loan-easy-cash.com
Posted by Auto Insurance at January 14, 2005 06:49 PM | Edit | Delete
Auto Insurance http://auto.insurance-wholeworld.com/map.html
Posted by Health Insurance at January 14, 2005 06:50 PM | Edit | Delete
Health Insurance http://health.insurance-wholeworld.com/map.html
Posted by Online Loans at January 14, 2005 06:50 PM | Edit | Delete
Online Loans http://personals.loan-easy-cash.com/map.html
Posted by Online Loans at January 14, 2005 06:51 PM | Edit | Delete
Online Loans http://personals.loan-easy-cash.com
Posted by Life Insurance at January 14, 2005 06:51 PM | Edit | Delete
Life Insurance http://life.insurance-wholeworld.com/map.html
Posted by Insurance at January 14, 2005 06:52 PM | Edit | Delete
Insurance http://www.insurance-wholeworld.com/map.html
Posted by Personal Loans at January 14, 2005 06:53 PM | Edit | Delete
Personal Loans http://quickloans.loan-easy-cash.com
Posted by Home Loans at January 14, 2005 06:54 PM | Edit | Delete
Home Loans http://homeloan.loan-easy-cash.com
Posted by Home Insurance at January 14, 2005 06:56 PM | Edit | Delete
Home Insurance http://home.insurance-wholeworld.com
Posted by Payday Loans at January 14, 2005 06:57 PM | Edit | Delete
Payday Loans http://www.loan-easy-cash.com/map.html
Posted by Home Loans at January 14, 2005 06:57 PM | Edit | Delete
Home Loans http://homeloan.loan-easy-cash.com/map.html
Posted by Home Insurance at January 14, 2005 07:02 PM | Edit | Delete
Home Insurance http://home.insurance-wholeworld.com/map.html
Posted by Travel Insurance at January 14, 2005 07:02 PM | Edit | Delete
Travel Insurance http://travel.insurance-wholeworld.com
Posted by outsider at February 4, 2006 06:48 AM | Edit | Delete
p
Posted by acute at February 4, 2006 11:44 AM | Edit | Delete
http://www.villagedusexe.com/jeunefille/buchi/gay/awxjguk/studs_muscle.html http://www.villagedusexe.com/jeunefille/buchi/incest/free_incest_storie.html auditoriumsquintedthan
Posted by alex at February 4, 2006 10:45 PM | Edit | Delete
cool site of course!
http://dmoz.tzo.net